crkavanje harda(pomenuto na advocaty)

konj @ 14.06.2008. 08:40

Ova moja tema je vezana za temu http://www.elitesecurity.org/t...-potencijalno-unistava-vas-HDD
ali stvarno ne bi tamo da postujem jer je meni realno potrebna pomoc, a ne popovanje.

stvar je sledeca

Code:

dellboy shakal # smartctl -a /dev/sda | egrep '(Load_Cycle_Count|Temperature)'
194 Temperature_Celsius 0x0022 082 052 000 Old_age Always - 52
225 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0012 026 026 000 Old_age Always - 754447

znaci da je prilicno ozbiljno(valjda...)

i koliko sam skontao resenje je

Code:

dellboy shakal # hdparm -B255 /dev/sda

/dev/sda:
setting Advanced Power Management level to disabled

i kad pogledam

Code:

dellboy shakal # hdparm -i /dev/sda

/dev/sda:

Model=SAMSUNG HM080II                         , FwRev=YE100-15, SerialNo=      S0BRJ10L915719
Config={ HardSect NotMFM HdSw>15uSec Fixed DTR>10Mbs }
RawCHS=16383/16/63, TrkSize=34902, SectSize=554, ECCbytes=4
BuffType=DualPortCache, BuffSize=8192kB, MaxMultSect=16, MultSect=?8?
CurCHS=16383/16/63, CurSects=16514064, LBA=yes, LBAsects=156301488
IORDY=on/off, tPIO={min:120,w/IORDY:120}, tDMA={min:120,rec:120}
PIO modes:  pio0 pio1 pio2 pio3 pio4
DMA modes:  mdma0 mdma1 mdma2
UDMA modes: udma0 udma1 udma2 udma3 udma4 udma5 *udma6
>>>>>>AdvancedPM=yes: disabled (255) WriteCache=enabled
Drive conforms to: ATA/ATAPI-7 T13 1532D revision 0:  ATA/ATAPI-1,2,3,4,5,6,7

* signifies the current active mode

sve bi to trebalo da radi, ali se cycle_count i dalje povecava.
inace koristim gentoo sa kernelom 2.6.24
jel ima neko ideju?

sve sto sam nasao na forumima se zavrsava na dellboy shakal # hdparm -B255 /dev/sda
i svima tu prestane. eventualno -B200 ili nesto izmedju zbog temperature. Ali meni ne. meni i dalje klikce...

konj @ 15.06.2008. 11:09

ok, uspeo sam da ga nateram prestane da klikce

hdparm -B254 -S242 -M128 /dev/sda

to sam samo skinuo sa nekog forum, mrzelo me da tweakujem.
ako bude previse toplo ja cu pokusati da menjam...

jablan @ 15.06.2008. 12:10

Obrati samo pažnju da isto moraš da uradiš i kad se komp povrati iz sleep moda, pošto HD ne upamti to setovanje.

kefalo @ 16.06.2008. 10:28

ja sam to rijesio tako sto sam dodao liniju "hdparm -B 255 /dev/sda" u /etc/rc.d/rc.local

@konj
hdparm ti javlja tacnu vrijednost u ovoj liniji?
AdvancedPM=yes: disabled (255) WriteCache=enabled

kod mene ma sta radio stoji
AdvancedPM=yes: mode: 0x80 (128) WriteCache=enabled

konj @ 16.06.2008. 10:38

HAHA

AdvancedPM=yes: unknown setting WriteCache=enabled

sad ne javlja nista...
i provalio sam da jedino -B254 zaustavlja parkiranje i to totalno.
sa svim ostalim vrednostima (1..253) pa cak i 255 parkiranje nastavlja istim ogromnim intezitetom (tipa na svakih 10s)
ne znam da li je do hard diska pa mozda ima samo ON/OFF, ali ovo mi je skroz cudno..

kefalo @ 16.06.2008. 14:34

evo da sam sebe citiram sa teme advocacy koju si na pocetku spomenuo

Citat:

prije nekoliko dana mi prijatelj kaze kako nije instalirao linux na laptop zbog ovog problema i kaze da nece da rizikuje jer je lap kupio prije 2mjeseca. on mi rece problem je samo kod ubuntu-a. no ne lezi vraze evo i kod mene problema na slackware-u.
inace laptop dell inspirion 6400 sa diskom Model=Hitachi HTS541616J9SA00 . laptop je star 1.5godinu uglavnom sam koristio vistu a evo u zadnjih 2 mjeseca intenzivno linux. i prije sam imao linux ali sam ga rijetko koristio.

Code:

root@papastrumpf:/home/kefalo# smartctl -a /dev/sda
....
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x000b   100   100   062    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  2 Throughput_Performance  0x0004   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline      -       1461
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0007   232   232   033    Pre-fail  Always       -       1
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       382
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   005    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x000a   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
  8 Seek_Time_Performance   0x0004   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0012   080   080   000    Old_age   Always       -       9063
10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       310
191 G-Sense_Error_Rate      0x000a   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       13
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0012   065   065   000    Old_age   Always       -       351581
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0002   122   122   000    Old_age   Always       -       45 (Lifetime Min/Max 12/60)
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0022   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0008   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x000a   200   253   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
223 Load_Retry_Count        0x000a   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
225 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0012   065   065   000    Old_age   Always       -       351581
....

heheh sad ce dimkovic da se sladi mojom mukom

ova brojka je prevelika iz razloga sto ne gasim komp nikada sto se moze vidjeti po odnosu power_on_hours i start_stop_count.

komandom "hdparm -B 255 /dev/sda" bi trebalo da se power management ugasi. output komande kaze da je PM disabled. sto bi komanda "hdparm -i /dev/sda" trebala da potvrdi ali meni je bez obzira sta da ukucam za opciju uvijek javljalo sljedece

Code:

root@papastrumpf:/home/kefalo# hdparm -i /dev/sda
....
AdvancedPM=yes: mode=0x80 (128) WriteCache=enabled
....

nakon nekoliko reboota i testiranja skontao sam da komanda radi svoje a da hdparm ne javlja dobro... tako da sam na kraju dodao liniju u /etc/rc.d/rc.local "hdparm -B 255 /dev/sda". i evo za 2h rada kompa u idle modu counter se nije povecao sto govori u prilog da stvar radi. prije toga digao sam sistem u init 3 ulogovao se i pokrenuo smartctl -a /dev/sda nakon 10min ponovio komandu brojka se povecala za 10. znaci 1count po minuti. sad moram josh vidjeti malo oko tweakovanja sta ce se desavati kad zadam 254 umjesto 255. neko je spomenuo da ovo moze da prouzrokuje pregrijavanje diska... ali evo kao sto se vidi kod mene je temperatura sasvim normalna, mozda, 2 stepena visa sada nego prije ali to nije nikakva drasticna razlika. u svakom slucaju ostavljam 255 narednih 2-3 godine dok se vrijednosti load_cycle_counta malo ne izbalansiraju

za vise informacija kako ovo popraviti
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanielHahler/Bug59695
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=795327

nesto mi je previse sumnjivo da je za mjesec dana koristenja linuxa ova brojka skocila na 350000 :S
racunicom 30 dana x 24h x 60min = 43200 to bi bilo mjesecno povecanje load_cycle_count-a ali nisam idle na kompu bio 30 dana... dnevno u prosjeku 16h sto daje 30dana x 16h x 60min=28800. 28800 bi bio neki realan broj na mjesecnom nivou. reci cemo da 50000 otpada na linux... sta je sa onih 300000? vista?

p.s.
sad mi je samo bitno da se ovaj broj u linuxu ne povecava. a kad uhvatim malo vremena bacit cu se na testiranje stvari u windowsu pa cu javiti rezultate...

znaci ja sam kod sebe zaustavio nabijanje countera opcijom 255 sto mi je za sada dovoljno... nemam trenutno vremena da se zezam sa tim ali svakako planiram da potrazim update bios-a i update firmware za disk ako postoji i da se sa tim poigram malo.
meni se sada count uopste ne povecava i temperatura je zadovoljavajuca.

Code:

9 Power_On_Hours          0x0012   080   080   000    Old_age   Always       -       9074
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0002   114   114   000    Old_age   Always       -       48 (Lifetime Min/Max 12/60)
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0012   065   065   000    Old_age   Always       -       351581

mislio sam da je moj count 350000+ prevelik ... ali sada vidim da si ti presao i 600k :S . koliko ti je star laptop koliko sati rada disk ima? jesi koristio windows ili samo linux?

kefalo @ 16.06.2008. 15:11

huh!
sad mi se pojavio sljedeci problem :S

Code:

ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x000b   100   100   062    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  2 Throughput_Performance  0x0004   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline      -       1461
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0007   232   232   033    Pre-fail  Always       -       1
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       382
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   005    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x000a   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
  8 Seek_Time_Performance   0x0004   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0012   080   080   000    Old_age   Always       -       9075
10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       310
[b]191 G-Sense_Error_Rate      0x000a   099   099   000    Old_age   Always       -       131072[/b]
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       13
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0012   065   065   000    Old_age   Always       -       351581
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0002   112   112   000    Old_age   Always       -       49 (Lifetime Min/Max 12/60)
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0022   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0008   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x000a   200   253   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
223 Load_Retry_Count        0x000a   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
225 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0012   065   065   000    Old_age   Always       -       351581

G-Sense_Error_Rate se naglo povecao za samo nekoliko sati rada na novim podesavanjima. u proslom postu se vidi da je broj bio 0 sada je 130k. a komp nisam pomjerao niti gasio... izgleda da se to desava samo dok je u idle stanju komp... evo cijelo vrijeme dok radim na njemu provjeravam i broj se ne povecava. znaci da je sve to nabio za nekoliko sati sto nisam proveo na kompu. mjenjam hdparm na -B 200 dok ne ustanovim zbog cega se to desava.
kakva je kod tebe situacija konje?

p.s.
@konj
mozes li promjeniti naslov teme... na nesto odgovarajuce npr. "Load_Cycle_Count problem" jer smo za sada samo ja i ti ovde a vjerujem da ima josh ljudi koji imaju isti problem i ne bi bilo lose da se ukljuce u rjesavanje problema.
hvala

kefalo @ 16.06.2008. 15:44

skontao sam u cemu je problem sa G-Sense.
cistacica mi je bila u sobi i ispraznila je kantu... i vjerovatno je svojom velikom guzicom udarila u stol da je komp pao sa stola. za 1.5 godinu nosenja laptopa na fax i vucaranje po busevima i prtljaznicima od auta nisam imao ni jedan error i sad mi debela krava udje u sobu iako sam joj rekao da ne ulazi i sjebe mi disk!!!!! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
znaci ovo ne bi trebalo da je povezano sa load cycle countom

konj @ 16.06.2008. 20:11

Code:
dellboy shakal # smartctl -a /dev/sda | egrep '(Load_Cycle_Count|Power_On_Hours)'
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   099   099   000    Old_age   Always       -       691603
225 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0012   026   026   000    Old_age   Always       -       754818
dellboy shakal #

e, sad, moja pretpostavka je da ovo nisu sati nego minuti, pa onda ispada 480 dana sto je ok jer je kupljen u decembru 2006(da, volim da se izivljavam :D )
99% vremena je proveo u linuxu, tacnije, otkad sam ga kupio, instalirao sam gentoo i to je to...
ponekad predjem u win, ali to je samo da odigram po koju igricu, ali to je stvarno retko...

sto se tice naslova, ne mogu da promenim jer je proslo vise od 48h, ali bi to stvarno moglo da se uradi, tako da bi molio nekog moderatora da to odradi...

sto se tice temperature, ono, ne znam sta da mislim.
do sad je bila oko 49 a sad je oko 55. nije se nesto povecala, ali mi deluje kao prilicno toplo. Voleo bih da namestim da ponekad i parkira tu glavu, ali sad stvarno nemam vremena....

CahLe @ 17.06.2008. 23:27

Citajuci ovu temu resih da proverim stanje mog hard doduse na desktop racunaru.
Prilikom iscitavanja /dev/sda daje korektne rezultate:

Code:

9 Power_On_Hours 0x0032 092 092 000 Old_age Always - 6332
193 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0032 200 200 000 Old_age Always - 929

ali kad iscitava /dev/sdb ne daje mi podatke o Load cycle. Jedino sto dobijam su neke cudne cifre

Code:

IID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x000f   109   094   006    Pre-fail  Always       -       23616410
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0003   097   097   000    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0032   100   100   020    Old_age   Always       -       370
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x000f   081   060   030    Pre-fail  Always       -       164054226
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   097   097   000    Old_age   Always       -       3434
10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0013   100   100   097    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   020    Old_age   Always       -       360
187 Unknown_Attribute       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
189 Unknown_Attribute       0x003a   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
190 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   060   053   045    Old_age   Always       -       791150632
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   040   047   000    Old_age   Always       -       40 (Lifetime Min/Max 0/13)
195 Hardware_ECC_Recovered  0x001a   071   065   000    Old_age   Always       -       219962739
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0010   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x003e   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate   0x0000   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
202 TA_Increase_Count       0x0032   100   253   000    Old_age   Always       -       0

dev/sda je Western Digital Caviar SE - 160 gB i nalazi se u bazi smartmontools-a
dev/sdb je Seagate Barracuda - 80 gB sa oznakom ST380215AS i ne nalazi se u bazi smartmontools-a.

Da li treba nesto ovih cifara da me brine koje prijavljuje smartctl za drugi hard disk i koji je ako postoji drugi nacin za iscitavanje load cycle?
Hvala unapred

kefalo @ 18.06.2008. 00:02

ja ne vidim nista cudno. pokazuje da imas errore ali nista strasno. potrazi na netu dokumentaciju od tog diska. vjerovatno ima i neki oficijelni tool kojim mozes provjeriti ispravnost diska.

VRider @ 18.06.2008. 00:30

Iskreno, tek sam sada obratio paznju na ovo, i za preko tri godine rada laptopa (sve vreme pod Linuxom) napravilo je nesto preko 350k Load Cycleova. Temperatura harda je 37 stepeni (skoro da je toliko i u prostoriji

). Videcu kako ce hdparm -B254 da utice na temperaturu...

Kernel-1 @ 18.07.2008. 12:11

Kada iskljucim SMART za HDD u Bios-u, da li on i dalje negde belezi te varijable - ali je samo onemoguceno
njihovo citanje iz OS-a, ili ih i ne belezi, nego krece da "broji" samo od trenutka kada ukljucis SMART u Bios-u?
Ovo me zanima jer sam cim sam kupio komp iskljucio SMART u Bios-u, i sada me zanima ako ga sada
ukljucim hoce li mi dati podatke samo od kada sam ga ukljucio ili i od ranije?

(nadam se da razumete piranje, malo sam spetljao) :)

Sada mi je izlaz komande ovakav, ali to je valjda jer je disejblovan smart u bios-u:

Code:
srdjan@Zverko:~$ sudo smartctl -a /dev/sda
smartctl version 5.37 [x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu] Copyright (C) 2002-6 Bruce Allen
Home page is http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model:     WDC WD2500AAKS-00VYA0
Serial Number:    WD-WCARY0097324
Firmware Version: 12.01B02
User Capacity:    250,059,350,016 bytes
Device is:        Not in smartctl database [for details use: -P showall]
ATA Version is:   8
ATA Standard is:  Exact ATA specification draft version not indicated
Local Time is:    Fri Jul 18 13:12:38 2008 CEST
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Disabled

=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED

General SMART Values:
Offline data collection status:  (0x00)    Offline data collection activity
                    was never started.
                    Auto Offline Data Collection: Disabled.
Total time to complete Offline
data collection:          (   0) seconds.
Offline data collection
capabilities:              (0x00)     Offline data collection not supported.
SMART capabilities:            (0x0000)    Automatic saving of SMART data        is not implemented.
Error logging capability:        (0x00)    Error logging supported.
                    General Purpose Logging supported.

SMART Error Log Version: 0
No Errors Logged

SMART Self-test log structure revision number 0
Warning: ATA Specification requires self-test log structure revision number = 1
No self-tests have been logged.  [To run self-tests, use: smartctl -t]

Device does not support Selective Self Tests/Logging
srdjan@Zverko:~$

..a ovo je sad, kada sam ukljucio SMART u Biosu (do sad mi je stalno bio iskljucen, od kada sam kupio komp, pre vise meseci):

Code:
srdjan@Zverko:~$ sudo smartctl -a /dev/sda
smartctl version 5.37 [x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu] Copyright (C) 2002-6 Bruce Allen
Home page is http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model:     WDC WD2500AAKS-00VYA0
Serial Number:    WD-WCARY0097324
Firmware Version: 12.01B02
User Capacity:    250,059,350,016 bytes
Device is:        Not in smartctl database [for details use: -P showall]
ATA Version is:   8
ATA Standard is:  Exact ATA specification draft version not indicated
Local Time is:    Fri Jul 18 13:21:35 2008 CEST
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled

=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED

General SMART Values:
Offline data collection status:  (0x84) Offline data collection activity
                                        was suspended by an interrupting command from host.
                                        Auto Offline Data Collection: Enabled.
Self-test execution status:      (   0) The previous self-test routine completed
                                        without error or no self-test has ever
                                        been run.
Total time to complete Offline
data collection:                 (6480) seconds.
Offline data collection
capabilities:                    (0x7b) SMART execute Offline immediate.
                                        Auto Offline data collection on/off support.
                                        Suspend Offline collection upon new
                                        command.
                                        Offline surface scan supported.
                                        Self-test supported.
                                        Conveyance Self-test supported.
                                        Selective Self-test supported.
SMART capabilities:            (0x0003) Saves SMART data before entering
                    power-saving mode.
                    Supports SMART auto save timer.
Error logging capability:        (0x01)    Error logging supported.
                    General Purpose Logging supported.
Short self-test routine
recommended polling time:      (   2) minutes.
Extended self-test routine
recommended polling time:      (  78) minutes.
Conveyance self-test routine
recommended polling time:      (   5) minutes.

SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x000f   200   200   051    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0003   157   154   021    Pre-fail  Always       -       5125
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       234
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   200   200   140    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x000e   200   200   051    Old_age   Always       -       0
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   095   095   000    Old_age   Always       -       4259
10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0012   100   100   051    Old_age   Always       -       0
11 Calibration_Retry_Count 0x0012   100   100   051    Old_age   Always       -       0
12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       195
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       51
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       234
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   110   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       37
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0012   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0010   200   200   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x003e   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate   0x0008   200   200   051    Old_age   Offline      -       0

SMART Error Log Version: 1
No Errors Logged

SMART Self-test log structure revision number 1
No self-tests have been logged.  [To run self-tests, use: smartctl -t]

SMART Selective self-test log data structure revision number 1
SPAN  MIN_LBA  MAX_LBA  CURRENT_TEST_STATUS
    1        0        0  Not_testing
    2        0        0  Not_testing
    3        0        0  Not_testing
    4        0        0  Not_testing
    5        0        0  Not_testing
Selective self-test flags (0x0):
  After scanning selected spans, do NOT read-scan remainder of disk.
If Selective self-test is pending on power-up, resume after 0 minute delay.

srdjan@Zverko:~$

- i sta mu znaci ono "Pre-Fail" (pred-crkavanje :) ) - i ono "Old-Age" - mislim znam da prevedem samo bukvalno, ali mi se bukvalan prevod ni malo ne dopada :))

_{[Ovu poruku je menjao Kernel-1 dana 18.07.2008. u 13:25 GMT+1]}